To the list above I would add that an effective church will yearn for the Lord's return. There is a crown reserved, we are told, for those who love His appearing.

To the need for leadership to lead, I agree but to meet the challenges of living in the post-modern world ... leadership must help everybody develop their leadership potential. Further leaders must not only teach people what is right (living or doctrine) but they also need to teach them how to find these truths themselves.

What does an effective church look like?

I believe an effective church should have an understanding of the first sin in Eden. A better understanding of Genesis is needed. An effective church (Christianity as a whole) should speak with the voice of one person, Jesus, and until it does Christianity will become even more divided than it is now.

I have read that in the beginning there was a dispute over original sin. There were some early Christians who claimed that sex itself was the original sin but they lost out to the group that said disobedience was the transgression. Why was there a controversy? Why was natural sex even considered sinful? That seems illogical to me. However, in light of the knowledge we have today and the openness in which sexual subject matter is discussed could the possibility of unnatural sex be examined as the first sin?

My study of original sin explains where all wars come from - religious war, church war, inner personal war, war with God, war with neighbors, and war between nations. In James 4:1, we learn where war comes from, “From whence come wars…come they not…of your lusts that war in your members?” The lust of the flesh is the devil’s groundwork for all wars. If humans are interested in peace, then all people need to put an end to the sexual lust that is ravaging all nations. May my study and explanation of the first sin provide a new prospective on understanding how to reach peace on earth. And how to have an effective church capable of bringing all men back to God.

When the peoples of earth do not understand the third chapter of Genesis, the story of Adam and Eve, and the sin that was forbidden for each and every one of us we cannot understand God, goodness, holiness, or the rest of the Bible.

Departing from God and following the ways of Satan is established in Genesis and revisited throughout every story in Scripture. In the Garden there are only two powers available for man to serve. And today, as it has been since Eden, there are only two powers. This truth is restated in the story of Noah and those in the flood – the population of the earth divided into two groups. If Adam and Eve were placed in the story of Noah, they would not be in the Ark with righteous Noah. Adam and Eve would be in the water for they were deceived by Satan. It was a sexually perverse generation in the water at that time and so it is today. And the land was filled with violence as our land is today.

If placed in the story of just and righteous Lot, the first couple would not have been delivered with just Lot. Adam and Eve would have been citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah. An understanding of this first sin that spread so rapidly is critical for the salvation and well being of mankind, for all sorrows ultimately come from the continuation of original sin.

I believe oral sex was the sin in Eden. Adam and Eve had no one to sin with except each other. Romans 1:28-31 describes men with men and all those who give up the natural use of the body to do that which is not natural. This includes all the sexually perverse: same-sex partners and heterosexual partners married or unmarred who engage in oral and anal sex.

This Scripture goes on to tell us what comes out of the minds of those given to the sex forbidden by God. “Being filled with” means their minds are filled with the list of evils that is then listed. Below is the list of what fills the minds of those given to unnatural sex.
All unrighteousness: (If no one had sinned this first sin in Eden, the earth would still be an Eden with no need for ten more commandments. And wars would not happen.)
Fornication: (The name of the sexual activities of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Gentiles, and Babylon.)
Wickedness: (the opposite of righteousness.)
Covetousness: (Greed)
Maliciousness: (Spiteful and cruel.)
Full of envy: (Greedy and resentful. The foundaion of war.)
Murder: (All murder comes from the minds of the sexually perverse. If no one had committed original sin, oral sex, we would still be in a paradise without pain and suffering. When sin ends murder will also end. War will end. Original sin is the root of all that is wrong, all the evils that are committed. It is the root of society’s problems, and until the root of all sin is acknowledged and removed these atrocities will continue. I am not saying all sexually perverse people will commit murder. But all murders come from the minds of those who commit unnatural sexual acts.)
Debate: (Their main debate is with God, rebellion against God. They debate truth, leading to all the religions and divisions in religions.)
Deceit: (Lying, injustice, corruption. All corruption in the church, in the business world, and at every level of government comes from those who have disregarded this first law for all mankind.)
Haters of God: (Regardless of what they claim; they hate God.)
Proud: (This is the pride God hates. God never walks in a gay pride parade. He never attends a same-sex marriage.)
Boasters: (We have all seen this demonstrated.)
Inventors of evil things: (This would include pornography, sex gadgets, group sex, etc.)
Without natural affection: (Today, many are given to unnatural affection as was the perverse generation in the days of Noah as demonstrated in the molestation of children, rape, same-sex relationships, pornography, prostitution, the high divorce rate, gangs, physical and verbal abusiveness, war, and the demeaning of women, etc.)
Unmerciful: (In the darkness original sin creates those captured by Satan cannot see that they do not care about others. When the Bible says “woe to you,” that does not mean “God will get you.” It means we will have woes: sorry, pain, sickness, injustice, war, and unhappiness if we as a people choose to sin. Yet, those given to unnatural sex prefer to please their own desires even if it brings all the evils listed above. The greatest commandment is to love God and one another. But those given to the forbidden sex of Eden actually are showing hate for God, self, and also for others. Original sin comes from Satan, and Satan is hate. Those who want sin to continue do not love God or self. And they have little mercy for their fellow brothers and sisters.

Read the list again and analyze how a nation could put an end to every evil on that list. Isn't the answer simply by putting an end to all unnatural sex? Wouldn't it be much more advantageous to begin a campaign of actions designed to end this so very popular sin rather than to condone, defend, practice, bless, and spread it as many organizations, churches, and our government are doing? However, it is the responsibility of Christianity and not the government to bring an end to sin. A holy Christianity will bring an end to sin. The end of sin will bring heaven to earth.

As stated, there are only two powers available for man to serve, God or Satan. Everyone on earth stands with one or the other and so it will be at the end of this age. In Isaiah 1:9, that truth is stated this way, “Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom and like unto Gomorrah.” There is no fence to sit on, no other group to claim to be a member of, and no place to hide. A remnant is left at the end and at that time almost everyone will have been deceived just as the couple in the garden was. In this darkness many will believe oral sex is not sinful.

The Remnant:
A few
Believe in God
The narrow way
No unnatural sex
Truth
Wheat
Lambs
Good
God
Christ
The Just

Sodom and Gomorrah:
The masses
Deceived by Satan
The broad way
Unnatural sex
Lies
Tares
Goats
Evil
Antichrist
The unjust

Adam and Eve were the first to be deceived by Satan and if placed in this illustration they would be part of Sodom and Gomorrah. They would not stand with the remnant who believe in the ways of God. There is no other explanation for the sin in Eden. By removing original sin (the root of all other sins) from the earth all other evils will eventually come to an end.

I can understand why many heterosexual couples who engage in oral sex believe two people of the same sex can marry. After all, the heterosexual and the homosexual couple are committing the same acts. I believe this is why so many heterosexual couples are in favor of same-sex relationships, marriage, and ordination of the homosexual. One major problem is that our society does not see oral sex as sin for each and every one of us.

Three verses speaking of marriage.
“But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh, Mark 10:6-9.” From the beginning marriage was designed to be between a male and a female. To disagree with this is to disagree with God. The following two verses give a man and his wife instructions not to sin.

Ephesians 5:21, “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.” The fear of the Lord is to hate evil as simply stated in Proverbs 8:13, “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.” A man and his wife are capable of committing evil when submitting in a sexual way. However, they should not commit evil with each other.

Colossians 3:18, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as (r) it is fit in the Lord.” Husband and wives can do what is unfit. Oral and anal sex is forbidden and unfit for husbands and wives. The cross reference to "as it is fit in the Lord," sends me to Ephesians 5:3, "But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not be once named among you.” And in Jude 7 we learn that the sex of Sodom and Gomorrah is called fornication, "Sodom and Gomorrah giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh are set forth for an example. So we can see that God forbids all men and women, husbands and wives, to use their bodies for fornication, the sex of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Hmmmmm ....

This post is not getting the response I thought it would generate. people i talk to seemed to have no end of opinion about what is wrong with the church today. Must be the holidays!

So while I think the church does not need another revival as much as it needs a second reformation, I will restrict my thoughts to something more manageable.

The church needs to respond to the post-modern mind-set, not by accomodating it but rather by challenging it. Truth is not a supermarket. The Bible exists not so we might know, but that we may know. The only way to reach the person committed post-modernism is not to teach them what is right but rather show them how to find it for themselves in the scripture. A task I am sad to say the church and most of its present leadership is unable to do or worse reluctant to do.

Padre

Two things.

First-

It is my observation that the Church is more concerned with righteousness, existentialism, and gaining material things opposed to "loving people as we love ourselves". Paraphrasing what Christ said in Mark, "There are two commandments, 1-there is one God, love him with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. 2-Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

If the Church adhered to these two commandments and nothing else, I believe it would be wonderful.

Second-

I read that "It is evident that the Bible takes sins like greed, hatred, and lack of compassion much more seriously than it takes any sins having to do with our genitals". This resonates with me more than anything I have read recently.

It seems some Church members are more concerned with judging people and the world based on one's sexual preference, looks (segregation did exist in the Church), and views. Christ loved people despite their sin.

The Church's message seems to say, "conform to our views and then we'll love you". Imagine if the Church continually preached on materialism, gluttony, giving, and unconditional love despite sexual preference, race, gender, and religion. the Church is to mainstream, let's offend some people afterall Jesus did.

Jesus was concerned with the poor, downtrodden, and outcasts of society. Overwhelmingly the Church is not "Christ-like". It is to mainstream- to nice. Of course this is a general statement. I understand that the Church can be very giving and many Christians are representative of Christ. However I believe the image of the church collectively speaking is one of materialism, self-awareness, and judgment upon others.

Of course these are just my humble thoughts. I readily await reproach and correction in understanding God is still working with me.

god be with you

Paul in Romans 12 told his readers, "Be not comformed to this world ..." Often we undertand this to mean to not conform to the fashions, trends and diversions of pop culture. John MacArthur suggests a different meaning. We are not conform values of the age. A warning for sure that is very relevant for an age that esteems all values as equal or valid. How should we understand Paul's warning today or what implications does it have for our ministry today.

Padre

I read the material posted by Marilyn Taplin on 31st December 2007, still trying to obsorb the content, very shocking, may be she can tell me exactly what had happend at Eden Gardens at the fall of mankind. That is Original sin, I need for my understanding more information on the oral sex is what happended at the eden? correct me if I am wrong! what is original Sin????? of course Disopedience is what I know, not the one you have written in your article Marilyn, please send it to my e-mail please. Explain....

Thanks
Antony A. Raj
Executive Chef

Typical ... I want to discuss church ministry and all I get is a discussion on oral sex. I might as well be back in youth group. :-)

So I'll try a different tact. Daniel wrote, "It is my observation that the Church is more concerned with righteousness, existentialism, and gaining material things opposed to "loving people as we love ourselves". Paraphrasing what Christ said in Mark, "There are two commandments, 1-there is one God, love him with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. 2-Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Might I suggest a peek at Romans 13 to explore this a little further. The 2nd law of the greatest commandment covers sexual promescuity,perversion and permissiveness because one does not hurt ones they love which these all do. Materialism is that covetousness? If so you may be right or do you mean the opposite of spiritual or aesthetic? If the former ... then I think you are suggesting church leadership promotes the pursuit of material possessions as a panacea for meeting our real needs which are spiritual. Could you expand on that? Righteousness is good did you mean self-righteouness? Existentialism? How does the church do that?

Hello Brother, other than that subject...

for a long time the verse in Colossians 1:23 is in my mind, am thingking often " the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven"
Is Paul means to say the Gospel was preached then
to all the people, as the church History and we see that we have not yet done this job yet 2000+ years, comparing Pauls' time and now advanced tecnology,communication and rapid transportation etc.
why are not we done the job of "preached the Gospel to every creature which is under heaven"
what form of evangalization they might have done?comparing what we do now? mean to say we are not grounded enough in the Gospel, not yet settled in the Gospel, or we moved away from the Gospel of Hope which we have heared, so what we have to do different from what we are doing now?

First, in reference to Padre's most recent post and I don’t want to get stuck on this, but I respectfully disagree with you as you suggest that the 2nd law covers sexual promiscuity and or permissiveness. Of course sexual perversion and rape, I absolutely concur. But I believe our stance on sex is the least of our concerns. The people I have spoken with aren’t refraining from attending a church due to its beliefs on sex, but because of myriad of other things.

Secondly, I say materialism to mean the unnecessary possession of materials (cars, clothes, food, etc.). Not covetousness, but simply the abundance of. I realize there is nothing wrong with the abundance of material possessions, but it seems that abundance has become the rule rather than the exception. The success of the Prayer of Jabez is a case in point.

Third, I did mean self-righteousness. We are to concerned with being “right” then with treating others “right” It seems the scripture stating and I paraphrase “may he who is without sin cast the first stone” needs to be stated often and loudly.

In regard to existentialism, I primarily speak to those ministries concerned with spiritual gifts, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc. Here again these things are ostensibly synonymous with Christianity, but in my opinion they have become some ministries sole message.

Again, I shall re-emphasize that these are my humble thoughts; I do not claim to have the key to the proverbial fountain of knowledge. I do however believe in serious discourse. Open-mindedness is the essential ingredient.

After thougth....

I believe I have gotten of on my soap box instead of attempting to answer the question, "what does an effective church look like?"

But in doing so it dawn on me that the "effective church" will appear quite differently from one person to the next.

It's quite pessimistic I know, but I do not beleive the church will ever reach solidarity. We Christians are very passionante people and what beleifs we maintain in regard to sex, greed, love, ethics, gender/race equality, what Bible translation to use, etc., etc. will ultimately be different. Not polar opposites, but just enough to keep us seaprated.

An effective church looks like your own body. Close your eyes and sit in contemplation of the Lord. When you return to the world outside, things seem to go a bit better. (Or at very least, they don't seem to have the same effect as they did before) It always amazes me how perfect the human body is for a temple or a church we can carry with us everywhere we go. It's perfect! God made it perfect. Yet around the world and down through history we have spilled the blood of these perfect human bodies, these perfect churches to protect the bricks and mortar used to build external churches called places of worship. The real place of worship is within our own selves. Try it out! See if it doesn't have a worthy effect. See if coincidentally you don't start running into others who know about the real church within and soon you'll be joining together and some of that worship will naturally start manifesting outside where ever two or more happen to meet.....

Daniel,

I want to take a statement from you and use it a little out of context:

"...the "effective church" will appear quite differently from one person to the next."

Too often, an "effective church" is "one that works for me." A great deal of American Christianity is subjective and centered on the individual. So, with that orientation, a church that I like, that "meets my needs," is effective for me.

However, this sort of narcisism is self-defined "Christianity," and is more about me than God. The Good News is not about "meeting my needs," but about reconciling me with God, that I might be a part of what He is doing in redeeming the world. Therefore, an effective church is one that is carrying out its mission, as defined by Scripture, in bringing God's grace and truth to the world around it.

A good indicator question, which I have mentioned before, is this: "If this congregation disappeared today, would the people in the neighborhood/town/city know or care?"

Thank you for clarifying Daniel. You raised some good points. Many Christians seem to be consumed with acquiring material possessions. Fortunately some use these acquisitions as a way to serve God through blessing others with their material blessings while others see having possessions as a sign that God is pleased with their spiritual walk. While we often say possessions are not the problem it is our attitude towards them that is the problem. I think the root of the problem is deeper ... it starts with the law. "You shall not covet." When we desire things we don't have just because we don't have them it can lead to two serious snares for the believer. Gaging our spiritual well-being on how much stuff we have and/or being willing to do anything to get what we want ... even compromise our values.

Self-righteousness is the attempt to be righteous via our own abilities rather than Christ's work on the cross. This is an especially subtle snare. Self-righteousness can us you said make us so concerned about being right we don't treat others right.

But righteousness is important. We need to let our light shine. That is we should reflect Jesus. There should be no contradiction between what we say and what we do. Therefore we cannot treat others right and then excuse sin in our lives. While the none believer may not care about our attitude towards sex ... God does. As with all things God institutes sex can be corrupted by sinful men. That is why i say the 2nd law covers sexual immorality. Sex outside of marriage, for example, is at least selfish and at worst harmful.

Padre

oooops ...forgot to talk about the effective church.

An effective church loves the truth so much it will take the time to have these discussions. Seriously the truth is important enough that it warrents people like Danielk and the rest of you debating but not dividing over non-essential issues. Further an effective church will know the difference.

Sooooo ... what needs to happen? Leadership needs to realize that in our rapidly changing world that can't always have and be ready with the naswers. They must teach their members how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Still Padre

My goodness, Marilyn! It seems that the problem of sin is really the problem of sex. Wouldn't that mean that a eunich, provided he never engaged in oral or anal sex, would be perfect? What about ordinary rebellion: doing the things you know are not right, and not doing the things you know you should be doing?

It seems to me that our easy rebellion is just as damaging as which sex position I prefer.