Hi Avi.
I think believers know that God is in them and the witness is a new life. Why is it unthinkable and beyond arrogance to feel that way? That God would live inside us is part of our faith (Jn.14:17,23). I believe our hypocrisy can cause others not to want God in their lives, but I think mostly what drives people away from us is the gospel of salvation by our sweet Lord Jesus alone. Tell people in as gentle a way as you can that only the Jewish Messiah can redeem them and people turn a deaf ear. They'll mention Allah or Buddah and call you "narrow minded". Hang on a minute, Avi. I'm going to get my baseball bat.
copper

So, the world will know we are followers of Jesus because we're nice, white, middle-class Americans. Right?

Hi Avi.
Being rich or poor is no indication that someone is a follower of our Messiah. Neither is skin color a factor. The "new life" I mentioned is by the Spirit of Christ living inside us, changing us into His own image. Of course, we still have our own (old) minds and can decide not to change. And as I've said, hypocrisy in those who identify themselves with Jesus might cause unbelievers to mock God. I just think it's more likely that most people won't receive salvation because Gods way is too narrow for them. Merry Christmas Avi.
copper

Copper,

You don't understand the question, it seems to me. The criterion you put forth as a "changed life" seems tobe that we become nice people, who don't drink, smoke, cuss or chew, or go with girls that do. Surely becoming a nice person is not the standard for knowing if God is with us and we are his people. Can you show me something like support for that from the Bible?

The powerful presence of God all through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, did not simply produce "changed lives," making people into nice folks. If that's all we have to show the world, there is not much to argue for being a Christian.

What does this mean: "For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power" (1 Corinthians 4:20).

Or this: "...but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

greetings to all,

(Matthew 5:14-16) "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. {15} "Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. {16} "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

(Matthew 25:34-40) "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: {35} 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; {36} 'I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' {37} "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? {38} 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? {39} 'Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' {40} "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

If I may...time and time again we try and think that by denying our human nature and or desires that means or makes us better christians and maybe even judges...However it is the acceptance and humility in the imperfections of our human nature that connect us one to another. It is not what we have or how much that measures who we are but it is the true realization that only by grace are we anything and through that grace we have been given we have an obligation to all that is.
When others see this in you, this freedom and truth of self and relation toward another how can it not be desired as well?
It is not the perfection in Christ that folks need it is LOVE.

Hi Avi.
To answer your first question, yes, I can show you scripture that says the evidence that God is with us is the testimony of a changed life.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

We know God is with us by obeying the Spirit of Jesus in us.

You've already cited the witness to the world, namely, the love we have for each other and have said yourself that the evidence of God presence in peoples lives is His transforming power. This love from God may be in nice, white, middle class Americans or not.

1 C0.4:20 means that Gods kingdom consists of walk, not talk and is directly related to vs.19. Paul planned on a visit to Corinth and by either empty talk or performance would know if he should rebuke the church or not (vs.21).

Acts 1:8 has Jesus telling the Apostles that they will be empowered by His Spirit and testify of Him to the world. By this, Jesus wasn't saying that all diciples from the time of the Apostles can drink Pepsi laced with arsenic without being harmed. Not all believers have the gift of miracles as 1 Co.12 plainly teaches. By power, the Bible means that through Gods Spirit, believers would do wonderous works, which include but are not limited to miracles.
You have mentioned Gods obvious presence to Israel in the days of Moses and Jesus' miracles showing Gods presence also. Is it your position that unless somebody can french kiss a rattlesnake without being killed that God isn't with him?
copper

"Is it your position that unless somebody can french kiss a rattlesnake without being killed that God isn't with him?"

Of course not. I think your question isn't even a serious one. There are many options between powerless Christianity and snake handling.

The point is that most of American society sees Christianity as powerless, all talk, and worth nothing. And there is a reason they see it that way. They are asking many important questions about spiritual things, and the church is never asked to answer those questions. In fact, the church is for the most part not even aware of the conversation.

Your understanding of I Cor 4 is not a good one. Paul is not speaking of the way we live, but of the power of the Holy Spirit in his ministry. Read sometime about the many references by Paul to the power and work of the Spirit. (Good book: God's Indwelling Presence, by Gordon Fee)

I am also not saying that all believers should be doing miracles. However, all believers should evidence the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, especially as they come together for corporate ministry and worship.

The kingdom of God is not about words, but power.

Hi Avi.
The implication of Mk.16:18 isn't snake charming, but Divine protection from being harmed by adders. The only reason I mentioned it is that you cited extraordinary manifestations by the Spirit in the time of Moses and Jesus miracles as confirmation of Gods presence. I have no problem with your examples, but by saying that a changed life is no indication that God is with someone, the only evidence remaining is the demonstration of supernatural power.

In 1 Co.4, Paul is questioning the state of prideful Macedonians, which state will be answered by evidence of power, not talk. Although the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers may be witnessed by supernatural acts, Gods presence is also proven by the change in the nature of those professing faith in Him:

Luke 6:43-44 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit...

You've stated that the presence and power of God should be seen in all believers, especially when coming together and that this power doesn't necessarily include the miraculous. Since you think transformed lives are no proof of Gods presence, what then is the evidence that God is in ones life? I have visited congregations where the evidence of Gods alleged presence was babbleing and falling on the floor. The "show" didn't impress me at all.

Society may well see Christians as powerless, since the unsaved have no real concept of what Gods church really is. False teaching is to blame for this. Another factor could be the work (such as caring of the poor) Gods people are no longer compelled to do in the communities they reside. Governmental welfare systems have eliminated the need for churches to clothe and feed people in their neighborhoods. Now we have palace type churches that do nothing.
copper

copper,

Snakes in any context are not my point. Jesus told his followers that He was sending them out just as the Father has sent Him. He told them to preach that the Kingdom was at hand, and to heal the sick, and do all those things that Jesus did. He worked many signs of power that healed people and set them free, and it was more a part of his life than what we would call "preaching the gospel."

Paul refers repeatedly to the presence of the Holy Spirit in his work, and the power he refers to in I Cor 4 is not a changed life, but the power of God to effect that change. A changed life is wonderful. I live one. But to people who don't know what I was like, it means little. Being a nice guy (and my wife thinks I am one) is not ntcessarily a testimony to God's power. There are lots of pagan nice people.

What is a testimony is when I pray in the name of Jesus for someone to be healed (just an example) and the person is healed, and they see a tangible expression of the love of God for them.

A church without the power of the Holy Spirit is not a biblical church. It's simply a religious social club.

Merry Christmas Avi.
Not all diciples have the same gifts. Sure, there are nice pagans, but I don't know any pagans who claim to be nice because of what Jesus has done for them. In 1 Co.4, you may be right that Paul is talking about miracles, but what would Paul have judged if he went to Macedonia and all he found were people who loved one another and couldn't stop talking about Jesus? Would he have asked them if they spoke in tongues? Would Paul have told them that God wasn't with them because all they did was love one another yet couldn't do miracles? Actually, somebodys coming who will do miracles, and this one hates God. How many people will look at him and believe God is with him?
copper

You say that knowing whether or not we are people of God is too important to assume, but you get your sorces from a book full of stories that you "assume" are true. Your explaination, therefore, means nothing.

Hello Avi,

God says:
Ye shall be the Light of the World.

And this God we worship, is all powerful.

So as you/we/Christians go, they will be light. Whether they hide in catacombs - or build Churches - they WILL be light. Either in their lives, or in their Childrens lives, or to some grave digger that eventually digs them up.
His servants, can not fail to be used. Some for honor, perhaps. For dishonor, perhaps... but, they will be used.
In another way, you could say: Is hard to buck City Hall.

Bert

We Know because of the descendants of Jacob (Israel)are still with us and the scriptures cannot be annilated.

Greetings,
I choose love. I choose loving the pagan and the Christian. I choose loving without expectation of them loving me back. I choose loving because it is the single most powerful witness of the presence and power of Christ in this world. I choose loving because it is the single most powerful witness to the existence of God. To be able to love those that do not love me, is Christ. To love those that do not love Christ, is Christ. I choose loving because that is how God, through Christ Jesus, loved me : While I was still sinning and rebelling, I was loved by God. I choose loving because Jesus told us to love. I choose loving because the alternative, for me, leads me down a road of cold religion. I choose loving because I have hated for so long and can no longer abide the taste. I choose love.