If this true then it is also one of the Vatican attempts to lead people away from the Creator God. It is one of their attempts to support the Sabbath being changed to Sunday or letting people worship God in whatever day they may chose except for the Sabbath day which is on Saterday.

I leave you with these words:
Rev 14:6 says "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospe to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice; "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters".

I have been watching pronouncements and events coming from the Vatican since the selection of the new Pope. I am wondering what direction he will choose for the church he leads. The question in my mind, assuming that the report above is correct and reflects official Vatican thought, is whether this is an indicator of a shift in direction for the Roman Catholic church under Benedict.

My question to ya'll, is this a major issue?

Beyond Darwinian views of the evolution of life, I am pretty comfortable with the idea that the earth and creatures God created have been around for quite some time. As in a LONG TIME. I studied geomorphology in college which led me to months of wandering in the mtns and canyons of Arizona and Colorado. If you look at the stratification of rock layers in the Grand Canyon for example, and spend some time considering theoretical depositional environements in conjuntion with global plate movement, mtn. building and erosional periods, etc... The observable data (assuming that natural processes have always occurred as they do today) might lead one to presume the earth is much older than the biblical record demonstrates.

The real question, whether or not you believe the creation account in Genesis to be poetic language or a literal account of creation, is... Do you believe that God created the heavans and the earth from nada? (ex nilo) AND that he created man and woman in His image (imago Dei)? AND that it is all GOOD (Beuno)? And that the creation account is the beginning of God's continuing dialogue with humanity even until right now.

Today, I can hang with the unknown of how long has the earth been here. While I personally see huge gaps in Darwin's theory of evolution, (transition species are unaccounted for in the fossil record) micro evolution is very observable (there are proofs) and promotes the bigger picture of Darwin's ideas. The real issue, which I will just mention, is inerrancy of the scripture. Does it really matter if the world were formed 8000 years ago or 30 million years ago? I would say no... To try and scientifically disect the scriptures, for the purpose of proving each and every word, is really a backlash against enlightenment thinking... The Bible is truthful in all it affirms not only in areas of doctrine and morals but in history. It contains everything neccesary for the purpose of leading us to Christ and guides our response to Him. Inerrancy is based on the belief of inspiration and authority of the text (God given) not on mans proofs of the literary accuracy of the text.

Genesis and evolution are not mutually exclusive... On a more secular level, I do think that intelligent design theory is a great compliment to standard evolution curriculum... it fits in nicely when studying the complexity of life or some of the unknowns presented in Darwin's ideas... I love the Roman Catholic Church and pray that God will use Ratzinger to revive a vision for global unity in the Body of Christ. I am praying for a reformation.

I agree with Michael and absolutely agree with what the Vatican said. The Catholics believe not only in Sola Scriptura,but also the traditions that have been passed along since the era of Jesus' disciples. I do also acknowledge that in the past, The Church did make mistakes, some mild mistakes, moderate and even unforgettable mistakes. But at this moment, I think human kind needs a leadership which does not follow "popular voice". Look at now how the body of Christ (i.e. churches) have been in disarray for centuries. Each with different theology make up another church for the sake of fulfilling their own ego or perhaps some worldly fantasy. Look at now how many denominations we have all over the world, each sometimes goes againts the other. If you find your house needs refurbishment, you don't destroy your own house completely, especially if it is historical. You refurbish part by part, by part and so on.

Hi Michael.
Your quote:
"The real issue, which I will just mention, is inerrancy of the scripture. Does it really matter if the world were formed 8000 years ago or 30 million years ago? I would say no... To try and scientifically disect the scriptures, for the purpose of proving each and every word, is really a backlash against enlightenment thinking..."

I would say it does matter, if one asserts that the Earth is billions of years old and thereby assumes the God of the Bible is a figment of the Bible writers imagination.
When you studied land formation in college, did your instructor ever give you any indication of whether he (or she) believed (or didn't believe) in the God of the Bible? Just curious.
copper

Michael and Copper,

Where does the Bible make any statement that the earth is 8,000 years or any other age? Where does it suggest that one must believe a specific age for the earth to believe in God and follow Jesus? Just curious.

Cooper, God is relational. There is no assumption that he is or was a figment in the imagination of Moses. God communicates to man. It is no stretch to assume that God was able to communicate origen to Moses for the purpose of rooting the Exodus community in their identity as the people of the God who created and sustains all things. Whether or not God created the world billions of years ago or last week... he is able to connect with humanity suffiecient enough for us to know what he has done. Many places in the bible we are given insight into Gods providential care of his ceation. The Noahic covenant is very precise in Genesis vs 8:22, demonstrating God as a caring Father watching over his creation. Many many places we find this. The progressive nature of Gods covenants with man, reaching consumation in Christ, all demonstrate Gods continued relational and loving disposition toward humanity. Time is irrelevant in some regards, while at the same time the bible can be seen as a historical document which has date specific circumstances. The first chapters of Genesis are not that sort of literature... And there is no assumptios being made. The point is that empiricism will lead noone closer to belief... I think that the main point of the scriptures are to point people toward a loving and benevolent creator. They reveal Gods character and call us to a relationship with him. The Bible is truthful in all it affirms not only in areas of doctrine and morals but in history. It contains everything neccesary for the purpose of leading us to Christ and guides our response to Him.

As for my profs in college. Evolution was assumed. Most never talked about God. If they did it was in relation to fundamentalism and patriarchal power structures. I hated Christians and christianity for many years. I was a pagan until I was 30.

Hi Avi and Michael.
Avi,
Although I have never personally done so, I think it could be possible for some one who believes in a literal six day creation (and I do) to show from Biblical geneology that scripture says the Earth is thousands of years old.
To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't say that believing in a young Earth is necessary for salvation, but believing in a billions of years old Earth would seem to imply that death is not the result of sin and therefore negate the need for a Savior.

Michael,
Thank you for your thoughts. You are very well spoken. Would you say your prior pagan lifestyle or disbelief in God was influenced by evolution?
copper

Copper, The question of the origen of death is HUGE! I am looking at interpretations of Genesis 2 and Romans 5... There are alot of things being said, but always that death is a result of sin... Cycles of nature--or the life and death of humans and animals seems to be our immediate assumption when we read the words, " You will surely die", that is where my questions lie... Is that the entering in of physical death into the world? Or is that a spiritual reality? Man was created as a physical being... created for the world-- we can see that in Genesis... Are we to assume that if he had not sinned that all life would go an forever and ever? That seems a stretch. I am leaning toward an interpretation that understands the cycles of nature to predate the fall... Still working that out though.

Also, I dont think any of this loses its substance by saying that we are unsure of the actual length of God's creative act in Genesis. They are not mutually exclusive. Gods creative act in Genesis and the fall are presented to the Exodus community and to us, for the express purpose of letting us know that we do need a savior. Consider Israels persecution in Egypt... God first gave this Genesis account of creation to them for the purpose of indentity. They were Gods chosen people, the people of the God of all creation! God was revealing his enormity as well as his character to them! He wasnt just some tribal god, or an elemental god like the Egyptians had... He was the one God! Is the one God for that matter! The rest of Genesis outlines their need for him, and that God had always used a mediator for his covenant relationship with Israel. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David all pointed toward the mediator yet to come, namely Christ. The creation account is Gods introduction to humanity. The idea that when you meet people for the first time you like to present yourself in a certain way. Gods is saying, "Here I am, this is me"

To answer your question... Yes, it seemed very logical to accept a pantheistic view of God based on evolution.

Hi Michael.
Even though anything in this world living forever is impossible to us, maybe the concept of a human being never dying shouldn't be, when we consider the reasons why people die.
One time, I was called to the scene of a D.O.A. (dead on arrival). The deceased was an old woman. When I spoke to the Medical Examiner, I told him it looked like she died of "old age". He chuckled and when I asked, "What's so funny Doc, he said, "Nobody dies from old age."
Isn't it amazing that, barring any external force that might bring about death, or some internal malady that might cause one to die, there is not one scientific reason in the whole world why human beings should not live forever?
Personally, I believe "Ye shall surely die" means physical death and that if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would not have died.
I think the people of God knew about the creation account before Moses wrote it down. Some believe that Job lived before Moses and Job spoke of Adam (Jb.31:33).
Thanks for your comment on how evolution affected your view of God. Personally, I believe many people don't believe in God because of the theory of evolution. I had a good laugh at sdfs' comment about the Vatican wanting to align Scripture with evolution in order for the Catholic Church to maintain its relevance. Maybe if they try real hard to show that the Bible doesn't refute evolution, they'll be so successful that nobody will believe in God.
copper

Hey man...

One thing that comes to mind from your belief that Adam and Eve might not have sinned... thus what you are saying is that God set forth a test or probationary period, whereby the law=dont eat from that yummy looking tree-- could have been followed. In some way that does not fit with the rest of the canon primarliy when we consider Gods character. Today, law points toward Christ. We are free from the bondage of the law because of Christ... So if Adam and Eve had not sinned, would they then have passed into a state whereby they were also free from the law and unable to sin? Because this idea sees law as threat or test, how then are we to interpret the rest of the laww in the OT? Gods character is completely revealed in Christ... that Character is one of benevolence and grace. Does that understanding of God fit with a God that would test his creation? A more potent question is how do we view adversity today? Do we view it as a testing by God? or do we view it as a severe mercy? A servere mercy is that God uses suffering and adversity to glorify himself/for in that we are totally dependent on him. In essence, in the midst of adversity we are closer to him than at most times... You mentioned Job... It is not that God tested Job, but that God allowed Satan to test Job... God is the Judge, not the prosecuting attorney. I believe that the law was given to Adam and Eve in the Garden for the express purpose of revealing Gods grace to humanity, not as a consequential test whereby Gods grace is a response to our failure, no, it starts with grace and ends with grace. That is the pattern of the scriptures... Not a God who sets good fruits in fromt of his children and says, lets see if they can resist... God has set good fruits in front of his Children that we might hope in that which is to come, a return to the joy of existence in his presence. A return to the garden... which is in reality to exist in union with Christ... with the hope of a New Jerusalem.

something like that... As for the Vatican's effort to "refute evolution" I still contend that it is inconsequential... It is likely that the reason people dont believe in evolution and the bible is that rationalism has set the stage for science to be absolute in its findings. Evolution makes sense. A shallow look at the sccience and you would come to the same conclusions. People are fed the info as absolute and there is no shame is accepting it. Deeper inquiry reveals the inconsistencies. We are living in post Christian era...THings are changing, Postmodern thinking will most cetainly begin to open peoples minds to the narratives of scripture and there influence will be great. Placing evolution and God at ends, dare I say, is evil! That is the primary reason why people are unable to grasp both simultaneously. God is not concerned whether we believe in a 6 day creation or not! When we stand before him, the question will be simple, in whom do you placce your faith. Its either Adam or Christ. We dont need to protecct God from science. He created science and the earth etc... He is not afraid of being under a microscope.

Belief in God is a product of divine providence... But I am guessing that this would be another point where we would differ, nonetheless... God is and will continue to build his kingdom regardless of what the Vatin says or does. Look at China! THere are more Christians there than in the UNited States. They are communist thus heavily bent toward being athiest... Hasnt stopped the Holy Spirit from moving in a huge way there. We participate in what God is doing... God doesnt use what we are doing. He has ordered the circumstances in which we exist by his grace, participants, children, a royal priesthood, That we might make our bodies which are the temple, a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing, that is the Christian life, to love because he first loved us! Freedom in Christ compels me to share the love... to sacrifice for others... all the way to my own cross.

Peace

Hi Michael.
With respect to Adam, I believe God formed his physical body directly from the elements found in the ground. I believe Adam was formed without life in his body until God gave him spirit. In no case do I believe Adam evolved from a lower life form.
I'm not sure what you mean by saying that to assume the command God gave to Adam and Eve "could have been followed" doesn't fit with the reat of Scripture or the character of God. The Bible plainly says that God tests our belief in Him and God expects us to obey Him (Pr.17:3).
To answer your question of what would have happened to Adam and Eve had they not sinned, I suppose they would have gone on living, since the Bible says that sin caused death to enter the world. I'm quite sure evolutionists would scoff at the Bibles assertion.
I used to view the law only as a threat. Over a year ago, I had a conversation with Avi that left me wondering about my belief. I'm still studying Torah because of things Avi said to me and my view of the law has changed somewhat. Christians are always quick to point to the law as a curse but God Himself also called Torah a blessing. I've never once heard any Pastor refer to the law as a blessing. Currently, I'm studying the role of law in the life of a believer in Christ Jesus from a website called Yashanet. Their beliefs about the function of the law are very different from what I was taught. I'll reserve further comment on this.
You have stated that God did not test Job, but that is not how Job saw what was happening to him, for Job said, "What is man that you make so much of him, that you give him so much attention, that you examine him every morning and test him every moment?" (Job 7:17-18)
The article at the beginning of this topic was not to show how the Vatican refutes evolution. On the contrary, the article says:
"Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly." In other words, the Catholic Church is afraid that unless they agree with the poistion of men who mock our belief in God, they'll lose their credibility. I think the Vatican forgot where they put their battle gear.
You may be right in saying that God will not be concerned with whether we believed in a six day creation, but one thing is for sure. Believing in a billion year old creation, by your own admission, helped lead you away from God.
copper

Hey there... I am not sure that the concepts of evolution helped lead me away, I was already away. The thing that led me away early on was the people in the church. I was raised in the South and the Southern Baptists had a limited but lasting influencce on my thinking about Christianity. I to affirm that Man was made from the dust of the earth and that he created dust from nothing! I believe quite possibly there was cambrian explosion of life through Gods creative effort, that it is not necessary to view Gods creative act in terms of literal days... The point I hope to make is that while very compelling and neccesary, we as believers must recognize that the discussion itself is a distraction from the main point. That which serves to divide... destroys!

Systematic views of theology have offered great insight into the scriptures, but they were coached by the Greeks early on and attempted to condense truth into bite size rational nuggets, while the scriptures themselves are in essencce a family history...the primary focus is on God as creator and sustainer of everything and his relationship to humanity-- both univerrsal and particular. For Christians these stories define the origin of life, but for the world they are foolishness.

I may sound like I am siding with the Vatican here, but I am not. The point I would like to make is that neither side of the argument is wise... and it just is not biblically supportable... it is assumption... to polarize evolution with intelligent design is wrong, when you try and fall entirely on one side of the argument. It is very wrong. In my eyes the Vatican has a more commendable position than fundamentalist in that they are recognizing that the issue is not clearly defined. We must enter the discussion with tack and humility... What is God really calling us to individually... Love... Love him, love one another... I approach this stuff with a very apologetic focus, while in no way settling or compromising that which is true based on a sound study of the scriptures.

Job.. the law... etc... I could go on, this is all very interesting...

In relation to the law Psalm 19 offers good insight. I see the law as blessing for many reasons! It is a joy to recognize the grace in all that God has revealed to us of his character. God truly is good!

Evolution is a concept which teaches people that life originated spontaneously, that is, without the Creator. The belief that God spoke the universe into existence is foolishness to the evolutionist. The answer to the beginning of life proffered by science (imo) has kept people from knowing God. I have a niece who teaches science at a middle school. She's an atheist, in part, because science has explained for her how God had nothing to do with the universe He created and the life He put in it.
I agree that when entering into discussion on this topic we must use tact and humility, so I'm going rename my baseball bat tact and humility.
copper

that made me laugh out loud! I talk about tack and humility and I am the same way... I am learning to slow down and listen more...

I am not so sure that evolutionist outright teach big bang theory or whatever theory they might claim most clearly explains the origen. Most people have a shallow understanding in regards to the beginning of evolution... I might be wrong?

I would love to continue this discussion, maybe we should read a book and dialogue... There is a book a professor at my seminary (Covenant Theological Seminary) wrote titled Science and Faith, freind or foe... His name is Jack Collins... Check it out and see if you are interested. Feel free to email me... michael

Thanks Michael, I'll look for the book and email you. I'm sure my understanding of evolution is as shallow as ones understanding could be. The reason for this is that any idea that flat out denies the existence of God never interested me. As I've said, I believe the biblical account of mankinds origin. Just how Professor Collins tries to reconcile sciences theory that Adam had ancestors, which included life forms that were inferior to maggots, may be entertaining reading.
Hey, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
copper

Catholics should wonder why Vatican constanly issuing a stout defence of Charles Darwin's Fraudulent Communist Religion "Theory of Evolution".
Now we have Vatican's high ranked Cardinal claiming
that the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.
Looks like that 150 million martyrs who were tortured and killed by communists since 1917 in the name of "Theory of Evolution" did not read their Bible correctly.
I am sure that Vatican's Evolutionists will one day declare St. Peter as the First Communist and Communism as perfectly compatible with the Bible.
Considering that we are made on the Image of God according to the Bible and that we evolved from monkeys according to Vatican, God must look like a King Kong.

In school, I've been studying evolution and trying to take a christian point of view on it (Being rased by a christian mother and an evolutionist father-me being christian) and I came up with this thought...
It says in the Bible that one day for man can equal hundreds of days, even years, for God. And Vice versa. Therefore, isn't that saying that man cannot put time on God? If so, that caould mean that during creation (the first 6 days) that days could be man's interpertation, and may be longer in God's version of "time". Understanding that, the mapped out version of evolution and the way organisms evolved is in almost the exact order that God created the Earth and everything in it. Whouldn't that explain the lack of transition fossils and why large scale evolution isn't seen presnetly?? This is just my thought. What do you think?

I am only seventeen and looking for truth right now in religion and have been analysing different religions. The one religion that confuses me the most is the Catholic church. This is because it contradicts major aspect practised and believed in Christianity (the biblical account of creation, ), yet the Roman Catholic religion is said to be Christian. In all Christian religions except for the roman catholic, the creation week in the bible is regarded as a factual sequence of events occurring in six literal days, with the last day the day of rest. The Catholic religion supports and teaches the theory of evolution and that the biblical account is irrelevant and that many other aspects of the bible are irrelevant. This confuses me so much. Evolution suggests that it is impossible that God created the earth in 6 days and on the seventh he rested and sanctified that day. It suggests that the earth was formed over billions of years. It says in the bible the Lord moved over the waters of the deep, implying that the world did exists long before creation, but there was no life or light. This also confuses me because it makes me question why their day of worship (Sunday) is enforced and defended so strongly by people of the catholic faith that I know and the Catholic church (the Vatican itself) when in my view, by analysing these things, there are no grounds for this Sunday observance except for the law that a man gave(the pope). The pope is suppose to be the “man next to god” as I’ve been told. Perhaps God told him like he did Moses, that the seventh day was Sunday...(even though back in Moses’s time the seventh day was observed as Saturday right up until 321 CE when it was changed to Sunday by Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire who was in fact a Pagan sun-worshipper. This means that Sunday would be the incorrect day of worship...as far as my studies have gone)..but not once have I ever read or heard of the pope claiming that God himself had told him or instructed him to do something and not one of the rules that any of the popes have made throughout history have ever been said to have had the pope say God himself told him to make them and enforce them. They just say something and it is done. No other religions hold the theory of evolution. They go strictly by the bible and the creation week. Why is the Catholic system so different and where did their and beliefs come from?? All the other religions seem so clear. Don't misunderstand my intentions here though....this is not an attack on the catholic belief system in any way...I love many people who are of the Catholic religion, in fact my boyfriend is Catholic. It is a beautiful religion I’m sure they are God fearing people It is simply that I want to find answers to the gaps that I have found within it. I am studying other religions also at the moment but I have not encountered any problems or contradictions such as these.

Manny people believe different things, and just because you dont believe that the catholic church and evolution can get along doesnt necessarily cant. if you read the bible their are 2 versions of genesis wich cant be right unless they are metaphoric. so to say that, that metaphore may agree with evolution is not far-feched. if you read the ordr in wich god creates the world in the first story it is almost identicle to that of the current theory of evolution. in my oppinion it has taken too long for the catholic church to acsept evolution and it is an epic step forwards in both science and religion.