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June 20, 2006

Presbyterians revisit the Trinity

From the Associated Press:

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The divine Trinity--"Father, Son and Holy Spirit"--could also be known as "Mother, Child and Womb" or "Rock, Redeemer and Friend" at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church's national assembly.

Delegates to the meeting voted to "receive" a policy paper on gender-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. That means church officials can propose experimental liturgies with alternative phrasings for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chairwoman Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during Monday's debate on the Trinity.

The assembly narrowly defeated a bid to refer the paper back for further study.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son "has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women," the panel said.

Conservatives responded that the church should stick close to the way God is named in the Bible and noted that Jesus' most famous prayer was addressed to "Our Father."

Early in Monday's business session, the Presbyterian assembly sang a revised version of a familiar doxology, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow," that avoided male nouns and pronouns for God.

Youth delegate Dorothy Hill, a student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, said she was uncomfortable with changing the Trinity wording. She said the paper "suggests viewpoints that seem to be in tension with what our church has always held to be true about our Trinitarian God."

Hill reminded delegates that the 10 Commandments say "the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

Rev. Deborah Funke of Montana warned that the paper would be "theologically confusing and divisive" at a time when the denomination of 2.3 million members faces other issues.

On Tuesday, the assembly is to vote on a proposal to give local congregations and regional presbyteries some leeway on ordaining clergy and lay officers living in gay relationships.

Ten conservative Presbyterian groups have warned jointly that approval would "promote schism by permitting the disregard of clear standards of Scripture."

Posted by sdf at June 20, 2006 10:33 AM

Comments

To all those struggling with God's acceptance and a clear understanding of the new covenant VS old. The bible makes little sense without this basis since verses SEEM to contradict one another.

First, Did Jesus teach under the Old Covenant or The New? (For where a covenant is, there must of necessity the death of the one who made it. Hebrews 17 "For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first {covenant} was not inaugurated without blood" Kinda hard if he was still alive. Thus, many verses under Matt, Mark, Luke and John are meant to CONVICT men/women of sin (the purpose of the law)

Can you mix law and grace? Matt 9:17 Galations 3:1-5) Galations 1:6-8

Ephesians 1:7-8
Ephesians 3:16-19
Romans 3:19 3:20
Romans 5:1-2
Romans 5:20-21
Romans 7:4-6
Romans 7:7-13
Romans 8:3
Galations 2:19-21
Galations 3:10-11
Galations 3:19-25
Galations 4:4-7
Galations 5:1 (are we slaves to the law or sin?)
Galations 5:13-14
Hebrews 7:18-19
Hebrews 9:12-15
Hebrews: 10:1

Matt 5:17-18 (Christ fulfills the LAW.. it was not abolished since there was nothing wrong with it). Couldn't be us, could it?

Posted by: Sean Dattoli at June 23, 2006 11:44 PM

Man can try to change the message to justify himself, He can try to reintepret God and his Word. But But God is the same yesterday and today, what he condemmend then as sin is still sin, Jesus came to save us from our sins, not so we could sin.This a call for prayer, not for us to condem but to pray they seek repentence and forgivness, and turn back to God as HE reveals Himself through his word. It seems to me that Eve was decieved but Adam sinned with his eyes open. Pray that they look before they leao Judjment is comming and God always starts with his own.

Posted by: John A Ballard at June 29, 2006 08:25 PM

Can referencing God as “she” Bring us the Blessings of Heaven?

That any transition from “He” to “She” would necessarily require
a polytheistic perspective and preclude the progress of Western Civilization


I recently heard my local Councilwoman, talking at a Lutheran church, refer to God as “she.” My thoughts about that have focused on the mythological nature of the cult of women’s lib and that myths do not tell the truth, but that the truth can be found in the myths. I see this myth -- in which God revels Himself as being both a man and a woman, and that the woman then stabs her man in the back and makes him a homeless, expelling him form heaven and then taking over the helm for herself. This is not the way the picture that was depicted by the patriarchal society in which Eve was expelled from Paradise and Adam followed her.

In the male version of monotheism Adam followed Eve out of paradise because the thought of losing her was so terrifying that he would gladly have committed suicide. In this version, the myth would have it that Eve did NOT slam the door behind her; as a result, Adam was able to catch up with her, discuss the matter, and suggest that ”You know, sometimes, a little bit of sin might not be such a bad thing.” And so, in the male version, the rift had been healed, convalescence was made possible by the maintenance of communication, but that the communication was to be used for what Christ said it was to be used for: to love and to accept one another.

This is not he case in the feminist theology and the myth that it is based upon. In the feminist version of that myth, God was expelled form heaven, only to be made homeless (“for the rest of his life, GUARANTEED” – to use the words of the police officer who broke up my own marriage in 2002). As always, a myth does not tell the truth, but the truth can be found in the myth. We recall Nietzsche’s aphorism, that “God, too, has His hell, and that hell is mankind.” As with so many other myths, what the feminists did was to take the reality of their situation here on Earth as a “given”, and then project it onto their idea of what is happening in heaven. The fact that, in so doing, they have lessened any hope for happiness here on Earth can be seen if we observe that, in so doing, there is also no way to bring the blessings of heaven here into our everyday lives; rather, we project our misery on Earth onto the eternal patterns of heaven. And the whole myth rests on the fact that the women’s libbers do not believe in communication – the very communication that mended the rift between Adam and Eve. In the feminist version of the Story of Paradise, they would have it that Eve did, in fact, slam the door behind her, so that Adam did – and should – commit suicide.

Examples of how this myth is being practiced and how it underlies our existence as a nation abound. We see that women’s libbers are the most sought-after candidates to perform the job of a “push-button general” for the Pentagon, where they can push the buttons in Washington so as to send foot soldiers to their death in places like Iraq. But may the feminist god forbid that such a women’s libber should ever agree to enjoy a cup of coffee with the sorts of men she is sending to their death – she might even fall in love with him, and that would be politically incorrect; In feminist theology, it cannot be said that the “god is love.”.

Or else we hear of white women who are living a sexually promiscuous lives and, when reminded of the existence of a white man in her past, they tell him that he can have just as much fun by masturbating. If the memory causes them to experience a little “kickback” from their conscience, they do not talk it out with the white man, rather, they take drugs -- either fun drugs or medication, either way, it’s the “chemicals” that are “the issue”, not the need to discuss the matter. And the fact that this is a racial matter can be made clear when one considers that, to defining “chemicals” as the issue paves the way for genocide since the body’s chemistry is established by one’s genetic makeup, which would be inherited if one were to have children. “Therefore” the medical “scientists” will tell her, “don’t have any children.”

Aside form these two examples there is also at least one implication of feminist mythology, and that is the fact that, in order to be realized as a theology, it must make a transition form a monotheistic perspective—together with all the advantages that that perspective has given to its followers in the West – before returning to the monotheistic view that god is “she.” This is by no means a matter to be taken lightly, since it is because of the monotheistic aspect of traditional Christianity that Europe became the cradle of science. And this observation is by no means a “merely intellectual” one since it underlies the aesthetics of science but also that of music. The fact that this compromise can be related to practical matters – such as that or economy is based on techno-science – is actually of relatively little importance; what is even more important is the fact that that technology assumes the presence of natural resources, and those resources are finite. This means that the question raised by the Hebrew – “Who deserves to inherit the Earth?” – has become important and will continue to become more important as those resources are consumed. The feminist allowance of polytheism, even if only as a stepping stone to their acquisition of political power – prevents them from assuming a monotheistic perspective that can be used to answer this Hebrew question.

Christ taught us to love and to accept one another, and forgiveness – with appropriate penance – is part of that picture, but He did not say that we should go on forgiving forever – just 7 x 77. That’s all. After that, and if we are still in need of an authority, we might turn to the other great monotheistic faith that has thus far been conceive by mankind: that of Islam.

Enter the Prophet Mohamed. I do not think that the feminists would like what this man had to say about the proper role of a woman in a man’s life.

At the time the Hebrew prophets raised this question, there were those among them who were lacking in the faith that there may some day be a Savior who will be able to answer it, so that they identified themselves more as a race than as a truly world-class faith. For them, it was the seed of Abraham – the jewish race – that deserved to inherit the Earth. While I hasten to denounce the folly and the racism that was inherent in this answer, it should be admitted that the modern science of genetics does allow for the fact that our instincts are genetically inherited, and it is a fact that our instincts, our culture, and our family history are all bound up together and are part of the picture that is assumed when we decide what is most worth doing. When the Hebrew prophets raised this question they did not have the advantages that we now have, of knowing not only that our resources are finite, but also that we are living in a multicultural society, that we need to get along with one another, and that there is now the possibility of instant communication – something that did not exist at the time of such wars as the Wars of the Crusades. But even this superiority of communication is useless if it is not based on the Trinitarian idea that “the refusal to communicate is The Sin Against the Holy Ghost”, that it is unforgivable since, once the channels of communication have been broken, there is no longer any way to forgive the guilty party for having broken it.

Communication is not only essential in order for a man and a woman to bring the next generation into the world, it serves also the purpose of paving the way to the future of the society in which they live. And it will enable also the possibility of us to agree as to the best way to conserve our resources, thereby increasing the life expectancy of our societies. We share a common view now, and we are witnessing before us how that view is constantly unfolding, how God’s will is being realized and his plan is being made clear. The efficiency with which we use the Earth’s resources will prolong the life of World Civilization so that we – or, more likely, our descendants – might some day see what humanity meant when it was said “Thy Kingdom Come”, that we might not only love Him and serve Him, but that we might some day come to know Him as well. His plan will have unfolded, and any difference between time and history have come to an end.

Walter Ludwig Schubert
Clinton Hill, Brooklyn
historyofmatter@hotmail.com

Posted by: Walter Ludiwg Schubert at July 5, 2006 04:53 AM

This makes me want to throw up. Calling God a woman? God is a man! Where is the Presbyterian Church going?

Posted by: Joel Horst at July 6, 2006 01:04 PM

Dear Bros & Sis in Christ,

To be able to be fruitful for the work of God we have to worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4-24)

(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

To understand Jesus, we have to preach that He is One God, Saviour for all:

(1Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And teach that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh:

(1Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Phi 2:7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was made in the likeness of men, but conceived from the Holy Ghost and therefore not from the dust. Lets not confuse His flesh with ours.

For more information, please visit our website:

http://www.apostolicinternational.org

Lars Oberink (Holland)

Posted by: Lars Oberink at March 18, 2007 03:32 AM

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